Earlier this month, 18 Canadian theatre companies—including the world’s largest queer theatre company, Buddies in Bad Times Theatre, based in Toronto—joined a cultural and academic boycott of Israel, in solidarity with Gaza. It was just the latest evolution in a trend that has been particularly noteworthy since Oct. 7, 2023, when the North American arts community turned sharply against pro-Israel and Jewish artists in all fields, noteably theatre, film, literature, poetry.
The progression has led us here. After years of isolation, there is more hunger than ever for proudly Jewish art, with calls for increased Jewish arts grants and community support. Here to echo those calls are two Jewish artists who have experienced these struggles in the last two years: Shaina Silver-Baird is a writer, actor and the creator of the TV series Less Than Kosher, and Hal Niedzviecki was the editor of Broken Pencil, Canada’s magazine covering independent zine culture, which he abruptly closed after facing backlash from progressive activists to denounce Israel.
In this series finale of Culturally Jewish, The CJN’s podcast covering Canadian Jewish artists, hosts Ilana Zackon and David Sklar sit down for a frank conversation and take stock of the last two years—while also expressing hopes for the future.
Transcript
Transcripts are AI-generated and may contain errors.
Ilana Zackon: So, we’ve gathered you here today to have a little discussion now that a lot of the hostages have been slowly released, and we’re kind of veering into maybe a new era for the Jewish community and Jewish community in the arts, in what we’ll call a post-October 7th landscape. Let’s start by looking back at the last couple of years. What, you know, if anything, has shifted for Jewish artists since the immediate aftermath of October 7th? And do you think things have simmered down, or are they still tense? Let’s start with you, Shaina.
Shaina Silver-Baird: I mean, I think things are still definitely tense. I’ve been very fortunate because a lot of my Jewish artistic work started pre-October 7th, and I was kind of already known as a Jewish artist before that. So, there was no decision of whether I was going to be publicly a Jewish artist because I was. And there was no backing off. But a lot of my work has been in Jewish spaces, so I felt very safe and very heard and very welcomed. A lot of my work is kind of distinctly culturally Jewish. I’m very much committed to the North American Jewish experience, and I try to stick to that because I feel like too much of the time, our festivals and our theatres are only talking about our trauma. It’s so huge and overwhelming, and it needs to be talked about. But I’m really focused on talking about other aspects of our culture and finding the light in it. So, I think my experience has been somewhat specific in that I feel like there’s been this need for Jewish comedy, Jewish music, and Jewish joy. That’s kind of what I’ve been leaning really hard into because I feel like that’s what I need right now. But there is definitely a sense of tension. I definitely think about who I tell that I’m Jewish now, overtly, outside of my community. In my community, I feel pretty safe, but outside of it…
Ilana Zackon: Yeah, when you say community, you mean like existing friends or collaborators?
Shaina Silver-Baird: Yeah, yeah. Or people who are extensions of those people I know.
Ilana Zackon: Okay, got it. Yeah. And how about you, Hal?
Hal Niedzviecki: I’d say tensions are very, very high. Probably just as bad or worse than two years ago in terms of the interactions between openly Jewish or pro-Jewish individuals. By this, I mean at least agreeing with the vast majority of Canadian Jews that Israel should not cease to exist as requested by some. So, if you’re openly Jewish or pro-Jewish, have some idea that Zionism does not equal Nazism, and wish to advocate for those ideas, I think you’re in a very tense position in the Canadian art scene right now. I don’t think I have seen any kind of movement to go back to the “before times” when those ideas were not so controversial. You know, I haven’t seen any efforts to stop alienating people for their spiritual beliefs. So, I think things are not looking very good right now.
David Sklar: And, you know, even as an artist, I feel that way too when I go to events. I just was at an opening night for a show last night, and it’s hard for me when I see people in person that I know have been posting very anti-Zionist things. Anyone who supports Israel is a genocide lover, and then I have to come face to face with them. How do I, as an artist, navigate that space? Do I just smile politely? Do I engage in a conversation like, “Hey, David, how are you doing?” Or do I be rude and actively ignore them? I’ve had to do each kind of dance every single time, which makes me think of the past month with theatre venues. Theatre companies have been pressed to join the BDS, the Boycott Divestment Sanctions movement. Recently, last month, 18 theatre companies around the country signed onto the BDS pledge, including the popular Queer Theatre Company Buddies in Bad Times in Toronto. Do you think Jewish artists like myself should avoid or engage with organizations like these? Maybe Shaina, do you want to start us off?
Shaina Silver-Baird: I feel like I don’t have a simple answer to this question because I’m constantly grappling with whether to start a conversation with people or whether to avoid it. For me, I go on gut instinct on whether the people are open to having an actual conversation, open to changing each other’s minds, or having a deep discussion. If someone is not open to having a conversation with me, I would rather not put in the emotional labor of having an argument we will both leave feeling worse from. You know what I mean? There’s a certain level of, okay, how much do I challenge? How much do we discuss? How much are people willing to come to the table and have a conversation? And how much am I just banging my head against a wall?
David Sklar: Because in our industry, Alanna, you’ll come in in a second too, because I want to hear from you how this might be a bit different. It’s like our brand is who we are, right? And if we are slightly cold or pulled back, or, “Oh, why is David being so mean and difficult to this person?” That affects us too. So, it’s like, how do we navigate these spaces? Alanna, I know you want to speak up.
Ilana Zackon: Well, it’s something I was actually thinking about yesterday before I even connected it to this conversation. I knew we were going to have this today because I just got back from being in California for the winter, and everything was very in person. It was honestly a breath of fresh air. I don’t think we talked about this on the last show, but people are so much more understanding about being Jewish right now over there. I don’t know if it’s because there are so many Jews. There are more Jews in LA than in all of Canada.
Shaina Silver-Baird: I’m in LA right now.
Ilana Zackon: Oh, you’re in LA. Oh, so fun.
David Sklar: That’s why it looks so nice outside.
Ilana Zackon: I miss it. Yeah, it was just so nice because, for example, I was in an acting class, and there was an assignment where we all had to write a monologue. One person did one about being a Jew right now, and I was like, how dare you not be afraid of bringing this in? And she’s like, “Oh, this class is really safe.” I saw that all go down in real time where a few of us raised our hands and were like, “Oh, I really relate to what you brought up,” or, “I feel differently in this way,” etc. A couple of people later on were like, “You know, it must be really hard.” These are non-Jews with no connection whatsoever. That would not happen in Montreal. Never. It was so nice for two months to have a break from walking in the Mile End in Montreal, where I cannot walk down the street without seeing some form of propaganda poster or someone wearing a keffiyeh or something that constantly reminds me of the tension. Whereas there, I barely saw anything, and I was there for two whole months. My point being that coming back home a couple of weeks ago, I was like, God, I’ve really isolated myself from the community, like, the artistic community over the past year and a half. Am I doing myself a disservice? Like, are they winning if I just stop going to everything? Because I had some bad experiences here, like, very close to October 7th that made me not really want to go to a lot of networking events or award ceremonies because people were being so vocal in a way I found really, really emotionally difficult. So I just stopped. I stopped going to see shows unless I was directly invited or if it was at the Siegel Centre, because that is a safety or space. And I’m like, I am not. I do not feel like I’m part of the community. I feel like I’m not really booking as much because I’m not networking. Should I just get over it? Should I just start showing up again and just keep my mouth shut and just not engage with people that I don’t want to? And I don’t know? That’s just a question that I’m posing to myself right now.
David Sklar: Yeah, yeah, Hal, I’ll bring you back in circle. Back to the question of, like, should we, as Jewish artists, avoid or engage?
Hal Niedzviecki: Well, it’s interesting, you know, I wrote a piece about that whole banning of, you know, announcing the ban, the cultural boycott of Israel, which is, of course, just, you know, you guys are in the theatre, so, you know, it’s just a performative act because none of those places would ever bring in anything that said a single positive word about Israel or Jewish culture anyway. So I think what. What I’m saying here is that we don’t really have a choice. We’re not really admitted to these spaces anyway. You’re not going to go to Buddies in Bad Times right now, now that they’ve announced a cultural boycott of our spiritual homeland and say, hey, by the way, you know, I’m working on a monologue about being a gay Jew in the 21st century. You know, let’s work together, right? Like, you’re not going there and.
David Sklar: I don’t know. I don’t know, am I? Would I? This is a question I have to ask myself.
Hal Niedzviecki: But, I mean, I think they’ve pretty much announced that they have a ban on you. You know, it’s another way of saying, we do not want a mainstream Jewish presence at our theatre. So I mean, to me, it’s just disgusting. It’s anti-Semitic and every single one of those theatres should be removed from public funding. The fact that there is no outrage, no interest in doing that is quite interesting. You know, it’s very telling to me and I. The, the short answer is I think that we are more or less banned from these places and that the. Any kind of development of the arts for mainstream Jews in Canada will have to be something that we put forward ourselves and strengthen our own cultural institutions. And reach out to not just the Jewish community, but anyone who wants to be involved in these kinds of discussions and conversations and see the arts from a non-completely ideologically captured, illiberal, left, Hamas-loving perspective.
Ilana Zackon: I’m going to push back a bit. This is something again I was thinking about in relation to what I brought up before. Sometimes I wonder, and I’m sure there are some people that fall into the category, like the ones who are getting into like physical brawls at Concordia. Like that’s like a different level of protesters, I think, from what I’ve observed from a very far distance. I think for a lot of these people, they genuinely think they’re like they’re standing up for something they believe in. I don’t know if every single one of those people, if directly kind of it was brought to their attention, like, oh, I want to do this show that’s like Jewish and it’s celebrating this. Like, I don’t believe that all of those people would be like, no, you’re not allowed in my theatre. You would never. Like, there are the in-betweens and there are definitely those extremists. And yes, like, I hear what you’re saying, but I just, I don’t know if we can paint it like as black and white as that. Shaina, do you have a thought on this?
Shaina Silver-Baird: Yeah, I feel like a lot of people, I can only really speak to the theatre community on this, but I think a lot of people if they were presented with, you know, a lot of Jews in this community are feeling really ostracized by all of this. They would be shocked. Like, yes, there’s people who would not be shocked, there’s people who are extreme. But I do think that there are.
Ilana Zackon: Some people, they’re like oblivious almost.
Shaina Silver-Baird: Yeah, just a bit. They’re oblivious and they don’t think that it’s mutually exclusive and whether like, again, impact and intention are not the same. Like you look at it, I’m a bit of a psychology nerd. So it’s like you look at it from a therapy perspective, you know, you have to take into account impact. But I don’t think everyone’s intention is what the Jewish community is actually feeling. And I do think that there are people out there who would be open to a conversation. They just haven’t had it.
David Sklar: I’m hopeful that a lot of people who are not Jews, they sort of think of Israel as this place, like, oh, well, I’m Christian, like Slovenia is a Christian majority country and they don’t understand the importance that Israel has for the vast majority of Jews who, whether we agree or disagree with the politics and procedures of this government, but I think the vast majority of Jews feel connected and feel very strongly attached to the state. Not necessarily we like what’s happening, but it is an important part of our past, present and future.
Shaina Silver-Baird: I think another thing that’s happening a lot is this kind of like compression or like making the Israeli government the same as the country and like not allowing Jews, Israelis, the situation to have complexity. Like just looking at it as this thing that is not being interrogated. And I know a lot of people in the Jewish community are talking about this, but it’s this black and white, good and evil, filter that people are applying that just doesn’t honour the complexity of the experience or the identity.
David Sklar: Come on in, Hal.
Hal Niedzviecki: I hear what everyone is saying and I love the aspirational pushback. I just don’t think it is reflective of our reality right now. I’m not going to go to a publisher that three days after October 7th published a big statement. I’m talking about an actual Canadian large, large independent publisher, you know, put out a big statement on X saying, oh, you know, we celebrate the resistance and long live the people.
Ilana Zackon: That’s a whole other level.
Hal Niedzviecki: I’m not going to that publisher and saying, hey, let’s have a conversation. Do you want to read my memoir? It’s very interesting because the talk of the illiberal left, identity politics that has always been, well, why should I do your labour for you and educate you? Why should I educate you about how you are being anti-Semitic and ostracising the entire Jewish community in Canada except for those five people running around screaming, as a Jewish, you know, I just don’t need it. I don’t need those people in my life. And I think if we look at the history of Jewish culture, it has always thrived very, very successfully, focusing on itself and producing amazing geniuses and works of art for its own community. And then that reaches outward into the world who recognise the beauty and the genius of that work. And I think that’s really where we need to direct our efforts right now, because I don’t think that there is any will in the Canadian art scene to hear what we have to say, to reach out to us, to want to connect or meet us halfway. I just don’t see it.
David Sklar: So then, do you think Jewish institutions like federations, or arts councils, or Jewish theatre companies need to do better at supporting Jewish artists? What role do these organizations have to play to support us as artists, if any?
Hal Niedzviecki: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I wrote an article about my experiences being canceled for posting on my personal social media that I support my spiritual homeland. And I do not, you know, I don’t believe that there is an intent to commit genocide or all these things. You know, I have personal political views that I wrote about, and then my magazine, that had absolutely nothing to do with that, was attacked and ultimately destroyed by this kind of leftist ideology that a Zionist translation [Uncertain], someone who supports Israel in any capacity, or believes that it has the right to exist, simply cannot be in the Canadian art sphere as a leader. So to me, I think we do need to really strengthen our Jewish arts funding. And by that, I don’t mean that all we do is produce “Fiddler on the Roof” over and over again. I think we have to look at the whole spectrum of Jewish culture and Jewish expression, and you don’t have to necessarily be making acts of culture that are explicitly Jewish in order to be supported and funded by the Jewish community. We need to broaden that, and we need to just provide way more opportunities for young Jewish Canadian artists to come out there and say, “I’m Jewish, I’m proud of being Jewish, I support Israel in whatever capacity I want to support it.” The bar simply being, yes, the one country in the world that is majority Jewish should not be constantly told to disband and go back to Europe. I think we need that.
David Sklar: So do we think there’s maybe a silver lining in all of this? Right. Has there been a resurgence of Jewish arts and support, whether it’s financial or an audience demand for Jewish artists and Jewish stories that we haven’t maybe seen previously? Shaina, are you seeing that at all?
Ilana Zackon: I think within the Jewish community is what David means.
Shaina Silver-Baird: Yeah, I think I’ve noticed maybe like a resurgence of Jewish cultural pride, especially maybe in younger Jews who just kind of took that for granted before. I feel like I’m somewhat guilty of this, where I was very lucky to grow up in a community where I was never scared to tell people I was Jewish. I just kind of took it for granted. Now I’m definitely feeling this kind of synthesis and deep connection to my Jewish identity, partly through all of this Jewish artistic work I’ve been doing pre-even October 7th, and partly, I think, just that visceral awareness of I need to foster this because otherwise it could go away. I do see young Jews who I talk to getting excited about the Jewish work that I’ve been doing when I tell them about it because they feel this deepening to their own identity. When you face opposition, you either dig in your heels or shift. A lot of people are digging in their heels, even if it’s just a love of their own culture.
Ilana Zackon: Yeah, well, it’s really freeing knowing that there are shows out there. Even I don’t know why I always use this as my reference. The show that came out a few months ago with Adam Brody and Kristen Bell, nobody wants. Like, it’s like a silly show, like a rom-com. But I think because it was Jewish, the fact that it became so big in the climate was so kind of nice because it was like…
David Sklar: It was a balm for the soul.
Ilana Zackon: This is like a… Like the same with… I had read a couple of your recent articles, Hal, but you talked about A Real Pain. It was such a gorgeous movie, and it was so Jewish. David disagrees. Okay, whatever.
David Sklar: I do. I do.
Ilana Zackon: Okay, whatever. We can talk about this another time.
Hal Niedzviecki: My complaint was that it wasn’t Jewish enough, but I totally hear what you’re saying.
Ilana Zackon: Oh, I didn’t say that’s what you said. I meant that you brought it up. Anyway, I loved it. Whatever. You guys can go deal with it.
Hal Niedzviecki: Yeah, I hear what you’re saying. The fact that it is a Jewish movie about Jewish things, and the fact that it existed.
Ilana Zackon: That it existed, right now is kind of freeing because me, like, as a Jewish artist, I have a show that I’m putting up next week, but it’s at the Jewish Museum of Montreal. And it’s not like, yes, there are historical things that are going to come up that do have to do with Israel because that’s literally a fact about Soviet Jews trying to immigrate or all this kind of stuff. But I don’t think that I’m pushing any particular political agenda in terms of that with my show. Yet I’m curious to see who shows up because anyway, I don’t need to go deeply into my show, but I think there’s a difference between what we’re seeing in the Jewish community, where there’s klezmer in my show, and the klezmer community tends to be quite left and quite anti-Zionist. I’m curious to see how those people react to me even bringing up some of the words that I’ll be using, because it’s just facts. But I have a feeling that when I’ve posted about my show on social media, most non-Jewish people would be like, I don’t really know what this is. I don’t know whether they care. I don’t know whether their eyes are opening about it. It’s something I’m kind of rambling because I’m doing a Jewish show right now. It gives me a little bit of hope. For example, your show “Less Than Kosher,” Shayna, is doing really well on the circuit right now. I’m like, oh, I’ve been really afraid that if I applied for a Canada Council grant, I wouldn’t get it with this show. But maybe I should just try.
Shaina Silver-Baird: Because you never know. Always advocate just trying, because you never know. You might hit a wall, you might hit resistance, but you might be surprised.
Hal Niedzviecki: I mean, on the topic of arts councils in Canada, Ontario Arts Council, Canada Council, B.C. Arts Council—I could go on a long time. My advice would be not to waste your time because you will not get it. And you know, they have very, very… It’s not a bias that I am articulating; it is a bias that they articulate in their incredibly pro-detailed announcements about who they support and who they do not support. They have priority groups, and the Jewish people of Canada are not amongst them. I used to get quite a lot of support for my work, and I have not gotten any support in quite some time. Right around the time when I started advocating for free speech and against the liberal values of identity politics, I stopped getting arts grants. I just don’t think it’s… I think it’s a waste of time. I think that we just need to go into our Jewish cultural spaces and say, what else do you have for us? We need more. This isn’t enough. I have heard some rumblings from some people in the world of Jewish philanthropy in Canada that there is interest in making some of this stuff happen. For instance, I’ve had a few phone calls and I’ve said, we don’t have what Ilana is talking about, which is direct funding to artists from Jewish cultural spaces. We need that because, in my opinion, the arts councils are a dead zone of incredible bias against Jewish people right now.
David Sklar: And as an artist, you know, Hal, who has appeared on both sides submitting grants as well as being on granting bodies, I’m going to half agree. I have had work that has a very clear Jewish voice get approved, but on the other side, when I’ve been on granting bodies, I have heard nothing but the biases of, “This is a privileged group. This is an entitled group. We don’t need to hear more stories like this. We need to raise voices that have not been heard before.” To deny these biases is completely wrong. Of course not. But at the end, I have been lucky with my work at the same time, too, so I don’t know. That’s why I’m saying I half agree.
Ilana Zackon: So before we wrap it up, I feel like we could probably go on for another hour. Let’s try to end maybe on a hopeful note, though. Hal, it sounds like, well, yeah, you’re fine, you’re fine, and you’re fine.
David Sklar: You have a realistic—
Ilana Zackon: Maybe like realism or hopeful, but what is something that you would like to see moving forward that can kind of get us through? Where would you like to see the Jewish Canadian art scene in, let’s say, 10 years? What does it look like? And what kind of opportunities are there for Jewish artists? Shaina, would you like to start?
Shaina Silver-Baird: I feel like just from this conversation, I’ve been super inspired by the idea of a Jewish funding grant. You know, the way we have the Canada Council, what if the Jewish cultural organizations came together to create funding for Jewish art of all different kinds? I don’t know. That sounds exciting. For me, what I’m trying to do is exactly what nobody wants this company did, which is bringing Jewish art into the mainstream and creating film, TV, and theatre that can cross the divide and bring our stories to people not just in our community, but outside our community. So that’s what I’m working towards. That’s what I’m hoping to see even more of in 10 years.
David Sklar: That is a great idea. If there’s anyone with deep pockets listening to this show, I think you should take Shaina’s idea to heart and start investing in Jewish arts programming to really support this community across the country. Hal?
Hal Niedzviecki: Yeah, I was going to say that I love the direction we’re going in here. I think that, at the end of the day, history has shown us that Jews have gotten through hard times by doing that kind of funding, supporting each other, and growing our own audience within the Jewish community. That will reach out and impact the non-Jewish community. People will see, “Look, these people are unabashedly supporting their culture, and that culture means something to them. That is very important.” I think we can grow that in the next 10 years. I have many followers and supporters in what you might call mainstream Canadian culture. It’s not like every single person is out there saying, “If you’re an anti-Zionist, I can’t talk to you.” So I think we need to identify those people. Identify our allies in the mainstream culture and find ways to work with them better. For instance, my publisher is a great supporter of what I’m doing. I’m working on a book for them about my Jewish mobster first cousin and my search for him. This is going to be, hopefully, a great Jewish book coming out of a non-Jewish publisher. We should be looking at things like, “Would this publisher like to do an imprint of Jewish memoir, or how can we support putting out a book like this or a play like this?” Any kind of circumstance where we’ll say, “Hey, you’re taking a risk by going out into the mainstream with a Zionist Jew,” which, in the arts right now, that’s a risky move. They destroyed my magazine because I was a Zionist Jew, not even putting those ideas into the magazine. They went to my advertisers, my sponsors, my readers, and said, “You gotta get out of this magazine. It’s run by a Zionist.” So there are risks in the mainstream arts culture of Canada. Hopefully, in the next 10 years, we can lower those risks so people will say, “Hey, I’ll take this talented person on and put their work out there. I don’t have to worry about it because I know the Jewish community will have my back if the haters come around and start trying to get my grants revoked.”
David Sklar: Well, Shaina, Hal, Ilana, I just want to thank you all so much and just keep being culturally Jewish.
Show Notes
Credits
- Hosts: Ilana Zackon and David Sklar
- Producer: Michael Fraiman
- Music: Sarah Segal-Lazar
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