Karina Gould says she is a Zionist; she is raising her kids to know the Jewish traditions, and she is fiercely proud of her Jewish heritage, including the legacy of her grandparents who survived the Holocaust.
With just under a month to go before the federal Liberals choose a new leader on Mar. 9, Gould—the only candidate of Jewish heritage—announced she had cleared her party’s $225,000 fundraising hurdle before the deadline last Friday. But she will have to come up with an additional $125,000 by Feb. 17 to remain in the race. Gould is campaigning against front-runner Mark Carney, formerly governor of the Bank of Canada; former deputy prime minister Chrystia Freeland; and also former Liberal MPs Ruby Dhalla and Frank Baylis.
Gould was first elected in Burlington as part of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s majority sweep in 2015. At 29, she became the youngest female cabinet minister in Canadian history when Trudeau appointed her minister for democratic institutions in 2017.
But after nine years in office, Gould says Canadian voters have lost faith in the Liberal party. She also recognizes that traditional support from Jewish Canadian voters has all but evaporated because of her government’s recent wavering stance on Israel and the spike in domestic antisemitism.
On today’s episode of The CJN Daily, Gould joins host Ellin Bessner to explain how her Jewish identity shaped her and outline her policies on Israel and Jewish issues: why she would continue funding UNRWA, for now; how she wants to see all hostages released unconditionally; how she’d handle the arms embargo on Israel, and why Trump’s plan to rebuild Gaza is a hard “No”.
Listen to the full interview above.
Transcript
Note: Transcripts are AI-generated and may contain minor errors.
Ellin Bessner: And we’re joined now by Karina Gould. Welcome to The CJN Daily.
Karina Gould: Thanks for having me.
Ellin Bessner: Well, it’s good to meet you. In the news in the last few hours, of course, is the overhanging backdrop of financial goals in order to continue on in the campaign. What can you tell us about continuing on with the deadlines for fundraising? How are you doing?
Karina Gould: We’re doing really well. So I will be continuing on, but the party has set the fundraising goals very, very high. But we’re going to meet them for Friday, and we’re going to keep on trucking to meet them for the next Friday as well.
Ellin Bessner: Well, that’s good. And do you want to talk to us about how you are able to meet those financial goals in terms of how… where the money’s coming from?
Karina Gould: So look, it’s been incredible. It’s been coming from thousands of people across the country who are making a bunch of small donations. So my average donation is less than $200. Eighty-five percent of my donations have been $200 or less. And that is really exciting. It’s people who are believing in my vision and my leadership and are excited about the opportunity that I represent for the country. So it’s been, you know, lots of smaller donations, and this is a people-powered campaign.
Ellin Bessner: This is The Canadian Jewish News, and we’re not only one or two issue-focused, but because you are the only Jewish candidate in the constellation, our listeners would like to get to know you better. As a Liberal candidate who’s been in cabinet for a long time, I’m sure that you are aware that the continuing position of the Liberal Trudeau government since October 7th has really infuriated many people in the Canadian Jewish community. So I’d like to start off with that. How do you respond to this?
First of all, you’re aware of how angry they are about UNRWA, about all the issues, arms embargoes, you name it. That Trudeau hasn’t gone to Israel since October 7th, so… And the antisemitism here. So you’re aware?
Karina Gould: Of course. I mean, I’m in touch with the community and have spoken to many people about their feelings of frustration and anger. But more than anything, actually, their fear here in Canada with the rise of antisemitism and how that’s making people feel in our own country. And that’s one of the things that I’ve talked to a lot of people about and heard from.
Ellin Bessner: Right.
And so how, as somebody who was in charge of [funding] UNRWA and now you’re trying to become the next prime minister, do you regret continuing to fund UNRWA in light of the intelligence and the information that’s come out about its participation in October 7, and the holding of the hostages and the antisemitic hate in their educational materials?
Karina Gould: Well, I would just like to clarify, it’s not UNRWA, the organization, that participated. There were people who worked for UNRWA. And what the Government of Canada and governments across the world did was suspend that funding while the investigation was going on. Look, in the Palestinian territories, there needs to be education and health care provided. At the moment, UNRWA was one of the only organizations that was doing that.
I think as we have this ceasefire now, as we are looking towards what hopefully a peaceful resolution looks like, there need to be conversations about who is best placed to provide healthcare, education, and services to Palestinians. My position has always been and always will be that we need a two-state solution. We need to ensure that there are opportunities for Palestinians to live in peace and security, as there are for Israelis to live in peace and security. Ensuring those basic services are provided is essential.
Ellin Bessner: So UNRWA should continue to be the people on the ground? Is that what you’re saying? As leader, you would continue to fund UNRWA?
Karina Gould: I would. In the interim, there isn’t another alternative. But that being said, there needs to be a very clear direction, obviously, that there can be no connection with Hamas and no support for Hamas. In a two-state solution, in a future government in Palestinian territories, there can be no role for Hamas whatsoever. That is very clear from my position, and I think from Canada as well.
Ellin Bessner: What do you say about the Donald Trump position to temporarily remove Palestinians, build it as a “Riviera,” clean it up, maybe move them out permanently? I know you’ve said it on [X]formerly Twitter, but please tell us your position. Do you agree?
Karina Gould: Sure. I mean, look, that’s an unacceptable position, and I think we all have to be honest about the fact that even suggesting that, puts Israel and Israelis in more insecurity. We’ve seen the reaction from neighbours in the region, from Arab countries, that they’re threatening to say this is something that would harm its peace agreements with Israel. So this is not something that is constructive and that is going to lead to peace or security for anybody in the Middle East right now. We all need to be focused on this ceasefire and working towards peace because there’s been far too much suffering for people in the region. Making sure that Israelis and Palestinians can both live in peace and security has to be our number one focus.
Ellin Bessner: What about the arms exports embargo to Israel from Canada ? As leader, would you change that?
Karina Gould: I think there are two things here. One is, when it comes to Israel’s ability to defend itself when rockets were being fired on Israel from Iran, obviously Israel needs to have the ability to defend itself. When it comes to offensive responses, I think those need to be assessed on a case-by-case basis. We cannot deny that the suffering in Gaza was immense. The fact of the matter is there was a humanitarian crisis, and by no means am I suggesting that this wasn’t a result of what Hamas did on October 7, which was absolutely evil and horrific. But the situation in Gaza is something where we have to ensure there is humanitarian assistance. We need to find the balance between Israel’s ability to defend itself from attack but also recognize that humanitarian suffering in Gaza was extraordinary.
Ellin Bessner: So, yes, you would remove the embargo, or ‘It depends’ ?
Karina Gould: Israel needs to be able to defend itself. It depends on what kinds of arms we’re talking about and if those are defensive arms or offensive arms.
Ellin Bessner: Understood. So would you say that you would revisit it? As leader, you would revisit this blanket arms embargo?
Karina Gould: Yeah, I think it’s a case-by-case situation to ensure that Israelis have the ability to defend themselves from attack and then understand what that offensive weaponry is and how it’s being used.
Ellin Bessner: All right, we’ll move on, in the interest of time. On what’s been happening in terms of the caucus and the divisions inside the Liberal Party because of what’s happened on October 7th, you’ve had a front-row seat. Could you tell us what it was like for you when, for example, on March 18th, when the government was considering an NDP motion? I mean, you were off on maternity leave, but you were still able to vote on unilaterally declaring a Palestinian state. What did you want to happen out of that March 18th vote, which was a watershed moment for [Jewish community] support for the party?
Karina Gould: Yeah. Well, look, for me, it’s important that the Liberal Party is a home for Jewish Canadians. I’ve always loved that being a Liberal means being part of a big tent party with people from every background, race, region, and religion in this country. That has to continue for us to truly represent Canadians.
I’ve been very clear about what my position is, which is a two-state solution. Eventually, that includes the recognition of a Palestinian state. But you can only do that within a two-state solution that is negotiated between two peoples. That is something I am very clear on and want to continue working towards.
Ellin Bessner: I noticed that on October 7th, from your social media account, you lit a yellow memorial Yahrzeit candle. I think you could see the Peace Tower from your balcony. I’m not sure where that was, but it seemed very important to you. Can you remember what you were thinking of when you did that gesture back on October 7th of this year, for the one year the anniversary?
Karina Gould: I was thinking about the horrors that happened on October 7th and the people who were murdered and kidnapped. It was an absolutely terrible occurrence. I think it’s important to remember that and hold that space for all of us. It was an absolutely horrific day. I recalled waking up on October 7th, a year and a half ago, like so many people, to this horrific news and thinking about the innocent people who were just going about their daily lives and were attacked and killed. It’s a terrible feeling to have.
So just remembering that was important for me, and also thinking about the hostages and, you know, hoping that we would get to where we are today, where they’re being returned home. But, you know, that’s a long time to be kept hostage.
Ellin Bessner: The Prime Minister did not go to Israel since October 7th. And you’re aware one of the only G7, actually the only G7 person not to go. Did you convince him or try to convince him that this wasn’t a good thing and he should go?
Karina Gould: You know, I know that the Foreign Minister went on a number of occasions, and, you know, we had many conversations about this. I’m not sure that I had a specific conversation with him about this.
Ellin Bessner: Speaking of the Prime Minister, you’re trying to become the new leader and maybe try to break away from the nine years of Liberal leadership. How are you finding you’re able to share that deviation or that new road? And what do you want people to know about that break you’re trying to make between what you did for nine years and what’s going to happen in the future?
Karina Gould: Yeah, I mean, there’s a lot that we did over the last nine years that was good for Canada and for Canadians. So I’m not going to run away from our record on child care. I’m not going to run away from the Canada Child Benefit. I’m not going to run away from, you know, the investments that we’ve made in the economy.
But I do think there are moments and times where we didn’t get things quite right and where it’s important for us as Liberals to recognize that when Canadians were saying to us, hey, we’re trying to tell you that we disagree with this policy or we disagree with the way this is being rolled out, we weren’t really able to pivot and change course.
And so when I think about a particular moment that this happened for Canadians, I think about the end of the pandemic when, you know, we had done a really good job managing through COVID. If you compare us to peer countries, Canada’s results were a lot better, even though it was a very difficult and hard time for Canadians. But at the end of the pandemic, when inflation was going out of control and Canadians were saying like, help, we can’t afford things like this is really too much, we didn’t really listen at that time. Like eventually we got there, but it took a number of months for us as a government to like really hear where Canadians were coming from.
And so for me, I think it’s important to be able to acknowledge those moments where we didn’t get things right and to acknowledge that we have to re-earn the trust of Canadians.
Ellin Bessner: So how have you been trying to show that in your particular campaign?
Karina Gould: For me, it’s really been about demonstrating that when it comes to the cost of living, I hear Canadians. You know, the first number of announcements that I’ve made have been about making life more affordable.
I announced that, you know, for a year I would reduce the GST from 5 to 4%. This is something that is important, particularly for lower or moderate-income Canadians who will see the price difference immediately at the till. You know, it’s a savings of almost $700 a year for people; that makes a big difference, right?
The second thing I announced was that I would increase corporate taxes on the richest companies, so companies that earn over $500 million a year in profit, from 15 to 17%. If I think about a company like Loblaws, at the time of inflation, they were doing shrinkflation, making their products more expensive for Canadians. So I think they can pay more in taxes to support Canadians as well.
And then the third thing that I announced was that we need greater competition in this country. We need to have a better competition bureau. We’ve made changes as a government but I think we need to go further. By having more competition in Canada, that means our small and medium-sized businesses are going to be able to better compete. And it also means that Canadians will have more choices across the consumer market at better prices.
Today I made a big announcement on housing. We have heard from Canadians over the past couple of years that housing is unattainable. So I made three important announcements today: a comprehensive housing plan that will tackle homelessness once and for all, increase our rapid housing but provide wraparound support so that not only do we get people off the streets, but we keep them off the streets; do a major increase in supply across the affordability continuum; and help first-time homebuyers get into the market. In the UK they have a model where they have a mortgage share program for first-time homebuyers.
Ellin Bessner: And the government had one. Sorry to interrupt, but in the last budget, your government voted to allow longer amortization and they would raise the cap to a million and a half. I’m very well aware of those provisions which were part of that. So you’re going to keep those and extend them? Increase them? We did a story with Ourboro, which is a Toronto company, where they house-share the debt. And you guys are investing in them, too.
Karina Gould: Yeah, but we do it. What we’ve done is about 5 to 10% of a mortgage. That hasn’t seen a lot of uptake because that doesn’t make the difference for people. So what I’m proposing is up to 50% so, as a first-time homebuyer, you can actually get into the market and then you could buy back your mortgage over time as your income increases. We actually see that this is something that works really well in the UK, and so you can buy back your mortgage over a 25-year period or when you sell your property. This is a great way for first-time homebuyers to get into the market. So it’s really trying to tackle it in a holistic way.
Ellin Bessner: Our listeners may, of course, know this about you, as the sort of elder Jewish stateswoman in cabinet. Then Ya’ara Sacks came in and now Rachelle Bendayan. There are three Jewish women in cabinet. I don’t know in history if that’s ever happened before. Are you all aware of this and do you ever talk about this?
Karina Gould: Yeah, we do. It has definitely never happened before in Canadian history, and I think it’s a good thing that it’s happening now. Diversity is a good thing. It’s a good thing to have people with diverse backgrounds in cabinet, and I think it’s something that we’re very proud of. You know, the Liberal Party of Canada has the largest Jewish caucus in Canadian history. Right. So that’s also a good thing.
Ellin Bessner: And this year the Conservatives and Liberals had separate Hanukkah on the Hill parties. Usually, it’s political parties get invited. This year it was not. The Conservatives had their own and we were very surprised to hear that. What was that all about?
Karina Gould: Well, that was very disappointing. Anthony Housefather has always organized an all-party Hanukkah on the Hill and the Conservatives went and did their own thing, and they didn’t invite any other party. I found that to be very disappointing because we’ve always done it in a non-partisan way ever since I was elected in 2015. So you’re going to have to ask the Conservatives about that because I think that’s really too bad. We shouldn’t do that.
Ellin Bessner: It’s an election year, or it will be soon. So, maybe that is one of the reasons why. I think it’s not the only time they haven’t done it, but it was surprising. Going back to one of your previous quotes years and years ago, I read that, you don’t consider yourself a Zionist.
Karina Gould: I’m pretty sure I did say I was a Zionist.
Ellin Bessner: Okay. I… I apologize if I’m wrong.
Karina Gould: I’m not an active practitioner, but I am a Zionist. I absolutely believe in Israel’s right to exist and being the homeland for Jewish people.
Ellin Bessner: Saying that you are a Zionist could open a whole bunch of problems for a leadership candidate. I’m sure you’re aware of that.
Karina Gould: Well, I think it’s important to have an honest conversation about what it means to be a Zionist. I think one of the things that has been really hard for many Jewish Canadians is how people have decided what they think being a Zionist is, as opposed to what it really means. One of the things that I’ve been alarmed about over the past 15 months in Canada is how Jewish Canadians have been targeted and held accountable for the actions of a state that is not Canada.
And, you know, one of the things that I have been very clear about is that you’re a Jewish Canadian, but you’re a Canadian, right? That is your identity. Even if you are a Zionist or have close relations with Israel, we don’t hold other people who have those same relations with other countries to the same level or ascribe ideas and values to them based on the actions of those countries. That is not correct, and it is wrong.
And, you know, I think we have to have an honest conversation about that. Jewish Canadians are feeling unsafe. I was in Toronto yesterday and went by a Jewish community centre that has police stationed outside of it. Everybody in this country, no matter your religion or background, should feel safe to be who you are. That is one of the hallmarks of being Canadian. It’s very concerning to see the level of antisemitism that we have in this country, and we have to fight back against it.
Ellin Bessner: Have you experienced personal attacks because of your Jewish heritage as a politician?
Karina Gould: Yeah, I mean, I get…
Ellin Bessner: I know Anthony [Housefather] has extra security, and so does Melissa Lantsman. So I’m assuming you might have similar challenges.
Karina Gould: Yeah, unfortunately, I have to have extra security for a whole host of reasons. But, you know, when I entered politics a decade ago, we didn’t have this level of insecurity or polarization.
Ellin Bessner: Are you raising your kids Jewish?
Karina Gould: Well, I grew up more with the traditions, and we would go to synagogue, particularly for Yahrzeit, and we always celebrate the holidays. I’m going to do that with my kids as well, and I do that with my children. My son, being the son of a politician, said to me, “Let me just get this straight. We celebrate Thanksgiving, Halloween, Diwali, Christmas, and Hanukkah, right?”
Ellin Bessner: You said yes.
Karina Gould: Yes, we do. I’m very proud of my Jewish heritage. It’s something that I hold very dear, and it’s absolutely something that I’m passing on to my children.
Ellin Bessner: You don’t speak Hebrew, do you?
Karina Gould: Oh, no.
Ellin Bessner: I know you speak lots of languages, so…
Karina Gould: Yeah, my Hebrew is very, very minimal.
Ellin Bessner: People are going to remember the picture with Yaroslav Hunka, the Ukrainian gentleman who got the standing ovation. Will you, as leader, commit to releasing the 900 names from the Deschenes Report? It’s something the community has focused on, and there have been appeals. What’s your position on this transparency of the Canadian historical record?
Karina Gould: Let me just address that photo. It is one of the worst moments in Canadian parliamentary history. When I took that photo, I didn’t know who he was. We take photos with a lot of people. When the Speaker of the House recognizes someone, you assume they’ve done their due diligence.
Regarding the Deschenes Report, we need to clarify whether these are people identified as Nazis or whether they were simply investigated. There are people in that report who were under investigation but were not confirmed. Releasing names of those merely investigated, without proof, raises concerns for me. But if there are confirmed names, then absolutely, those names should be released.
Obviously, I haven’t seen the contents of the report, so I don’t know enough about it, but my grandparents are Holocaust survivors. So, you know, anybody who was involved in the Nazi war crimes, I think should absolutely be held accountable.
Ellin Bessner: Okay. Would you like to explain to our listeners something about you that they haven’t read in the press, but something our listeners would like to know more about in terms of your background.
Karina Gould: I got elected in 2015. You know, maybe I’ll tell a story about, you know, my grandparents immigrated here after World War II. As I said, my grandfather was a Holocaust survivor. My grandmother escaped to England during the war, and they reconnected afterward. They were high school sweethearts and were able to reconnect from—
Ellin Bessner: What country were they from?
Karina Gould: From Czechoslovakia.
Ellin Bessner: YWhat city or town were they from?
Karina Gould: Zatec. Look it up. It’s about an hour, west of Prague, in the Sudetenland. So it was one of the first areas where the Nazis came in, unfortunately. But they have a beautiful story about how, you know, they were able to reconnect following the war, and they immigrated to Canada. My grandfather’s uncle sponsored them. He was a peach farmer in Niagara. They arrived in Montreal with $5 in their pocket and made it to Niagara, where my grandfather worked in a grocery store and my grandmother worked, I think, in a cafe. Eventually, they bought an apple farm (Ella Riva Farms) in Lynden, Ontario, and became apple farmers. I never met my grandfather (Joseph Gould); he died early from health problems, but my grandmother Lilly lived to see her granddaughter elected to Parliament and become a cabinet minister. She was always so grateful to Canada for offering our family safe haven and opportunity. That’s something that she always instilled in me. I often think about my grandmother and how her life changed, but how proud she was to be Canadian and how grateful she was for this country.
Ellin Bessner: And I know that your Dad Peter is the Jewish side of the family, and they had a wonderful story about meeting at Kibbutz Neot Mordechai, which I’ve been to, and bought a lot of Naot shoes there.
Karina Gould: Yeah.
Ellin Bessner: As one does when they go! Was there stigma at that time of your dad being the son of a Holocaust survivor, marrying someone who wasn’t Jewish, who was German? How did that go over in the family?
Karina Gould: Yeah. So my parents did meet in Israel. They met on Kibbutz Naot. I got to go there as well, and I did buy some sandals. I still have them. They’re great. They’re really good quality. And, yes, there was stigma. My grandmother was not happy about it at all, but my great-grandfather, her father, [Alfred Friedlander] was very happy about it because he always identified as an Austrian. So he would quote Schiller and Goethe to my mom, and he really connected with her, even if she was German. But she doesn’t have such a German name.
Ellin Bessner: Kohn could be Cohen. It also could be. We don’t know exactly.
Karina Gould: Yeah, exactly. So it absolutely could have been [Jewish] at some point, but my mom [Gesa] actually spoke Hebrew because she lived in Israel for a year, so she loved everything about Jewish culture.
Ellin Bessner: Your late mom was a veterinarian.
Karina Gould: So she absolutely loved animals, so she passed that on to us as well.
Ellin Bessner: What is your next speaking tour or next engagement that we should be watching for, what is the next step in the process?
Karina Gould: Well, that’s a great question. I’ll hopefully be heading out East in the next couple of days, and I’ll have more announcements to make on the economy, our social safety net, and on security. I made an announcement a couple of weeks ago, and it recently came up again about meeting our 2% commitment to NATO. One of the things I said I would do, because I think it’s really important, is to increase the salaries of our soldiers. Our Canadian Armed Forces personnel simply don’t earn what they should for the incredible work that they do.
Ellin Bessner: The last question is, everybody’s thinking about Donald Trump, and your leadership campaign is coming as part of the Donald Trump trade tariffs war. Have you met him personally at all, ever?
Karina Gould: [shakes her head, no]
Ellin Bessner: If not, how would you be able to deal with him as leader and prime minister to help save Canada from being the 51st state?
Karina Gould: Yeah, well, Canada will never be the 51st state. We are uniquely Canadian. And one of the things that I’ve been really proud of over the past couple of days, in particular, is seeing how Canadians have come together as Canadians. We really have this sense of patriotism and pride in our country, something that, you know, I think should make all of us feel good, right?
Look, I’ve been dealing with bullies in the House of Commons for the last 10 years. So I know how to stand up for Canada, and I know how to stand up for Canadians. I also know how to negotiate with people with whom I don’t necessarily see eye to eye. I negotiated the childcare agreements across the country, many of whom were conservative governments at the time. But I also know how to work with people, even if they don’t necessarily share my set of beliefs and values.
Ellin Bessner: When you say bullies, are you talking about specific parties or people specifically who are bullying you?
Karina Gould: Yeah, well, I would say particularly the opposition party and Pierre Poilievre in the House of Commons. So I know how to stand up for Canada and stand up for Canadians.
Ellin Bessner: Listen, it’s been a great honour to chat with you and get to know you. Good luck, and we’ll be watching. Thanks so much for being on The CJN Daily.
Karina Gould: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
Show Notes
Related links
- Read a 2021 profile of Karina Gould when she was Minister of Families, Children and Social Development, in The CJN.
- Learn more about Karina Gould at her campaign website.
- Read what CJN political columnist says about the main candidates in the Liberal leadership race, in The CJN.
Credits
- Host and writer: Ellin Bessner (@ebessner)
- Production team: Zachary Kauffman (producer), Michael Fraiman (executive producer)
- Music: Dov Beck-Levine
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