The host of this show, Phoebe Maltz Bovy, likes to wear floral dresses. So does her guest, author Joanna Rakoff. But while these two women are fans of floral fashions, they are not MAGA supporters or “momfluencers”—a note that must be clarified for anyone following the political battleground that has erupted around this fashion trend.
In this episode of The Jewish Angle, we unpack the cultural tapestry of floral dresses, weaving together threads of personal experience, fashion history and political implications, from Laura Ashley’s pastoral prints to Batsheva Hay’s modern reinterpretations. As floral patterns become entangled with right-wing aesthetics and “tradwife” culture, Bovy and Rakoff navigate the shifting landscape where fashion choices carry unexpected political weight.
Transcript
Phoebe Maltz Bovy: Hi, I’m Phoebe Maltz Bovy, opinion editor of the Canadian Jewish News. You’re listening to The Jewish Angle, a podcast from The CJN that looks at the complicated place of Jews in today’s cultural and political landscapes. Today, however, will be a slight change of pace because we are still talking about Jews and politics, but through a different lens than ever before: women’s fashion. And I’m so honored to have as a guest today the award-winning author, Joanna Rakoff. Of her many accomplishments, I will focus on the ones with the most Canadian Jewish relevance. So with that in mind, her novel “A Fortunate Age” was the winner of the Goldberg Prize for Jewish Fiction by Emerging Writers, and her memoir “My Salinger Year” was adapted into a Canadian movie starring Margaret Crowley and Sigourney Weaver. But she came recommended to me by a mutual friend as the person to discuss the Jewish angles of floral dress politics with. And I am so excited to hear what she has to say on this. Joanna, welcome to The Jewish Angle.
Joanna Rakoff: Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here.
Phoebe Maltz Bovy: So before we talk about the politics, let’s just a word about these dresses. Okay. What is your ideal or favourite floral dress? And also, my next question is going to be what a deal breaker is for you.
Joanna Rakoff: Oh God. So I have so many, it’s hard to say, but I’m wearing one of my favourites. This is a vintage Laura Ashley dress that I found in a charity shop on Cape Cod. It was many, many, many sizes too big for me, but I snapped it up before anyone else could get it and brought it to my tailor and had them take it in and take it up, and it’s now sort of an all-time favourite. Even though it’s not the dress that I wear the most, because, and I think this is something we might talk about, it’s very, as my good friend Lauren would say, literal. It’s very lit. Like, this is an actual 80s Laura Ashley dress. I did alter it so that it, you know, the sleeves are a little shorter and the skirt is shorter. I look a little bit less like a Mormon wife in it than I might have when I first got it. But where I live, which is Cambridge, Massachusetts, people dress very casually. And this dress, which is kind of like turquoise with pink flowers, definitely reads as vintage. And here it feels a little costume-y. I’m from New York, and when I’m in New York, I wear it. I almost always bring it with me and wear it because there are no…
Phoebe Maltz Bovy: This is so, this is so interesting. Yeah, yeah. First of all, I love your dress. And I, because I’m in—if you’re listening only on audio and not watching any clip on YouTube, you will not know that we are wearing very similar dresses. I wore my own favourite vintage Laura Ashley dress for the occasion. Mine is from eBay, which is a little less romantic, but yes. Similar sort of square neckline, similar puffy sleeves. Mine came already in my size, although the sizing is weird with these. Like, what is the numerical size you sort of have to disregard because I guess it’s vintage sizing and British sizing and all of these things. But mine already had the shorter sleeves. I kept the long length and I did so partly because I feel like there’s something about my physicality that just—I’m never going to look like a Mormon housewife. People would see me and they would see me in context and they’d be like, no, that’s not who this is. So I don’t—I can pass for Hasidic, I cannot really pass for Mormon housewife. But like, I wanted to talk about just like about the details of these dresses because the Laura Ashley ones themselves, I really like the cotton and I like the color schemes and the patterns, like the prints. It’s not too many, like, bows and things. I don’t like when there’s too many of the sort of extra bits, and that it has pockets. But it isn’t the kind of like twee look, this dress has pockets thing, if that makes sense. But my deal breakers for these dresses are polyester lining. Like, if you see a nice cotton dress and it’s like lined in polyester. The ones that have the super high necklines, like, I sometimes buy these that have the button up and then I like can’t really move around. And then, or the ones that have the long sleeves that kind of button at the wrist. But I was going to say I’ve had less luck with the new in-stores ones because you’re talking about the very literal. I feel like I only end up getting use out of the sort of the real deal from like around 1990. But have you had more luck with the newer ones?
Joanna Rakoff: So I wish I could take my laptop into my closet so you could see how much clothing I own. But I own a lot of clothing. I feel like I should back up and say, well, I’ll answer your question first, which is I’ve had luck with both, and let me just explain a little. So I, I’m a sort of avid shopper and I also have many friends who are avid shoppers. My dearest friend who I mentioned is a huge vintage and thrift shopper, and friends will find dresses in thrift shops, at sample sales, at resale shops and buy them for me and send them to me. I’ve had people buy dresses for themselves, influenced by me on Instagram. I post a lot of my dresses and people will say like, readers of mine, fans will say like, oh, I bought this dress thinking that I would wear it because I love your dresses, but I’m just not a dress person. And then they’ll send it to me. So I have so many. I will say like three super quick things. I can’t do the polyester thing in any way. I definitely was raised by a very New York-y mom, like a Bergdorf Barney’s shopping mom who would not wear anything except like five fabrics. And so maybe that is why. So I do really hate the sort of polyester fabrications that have like a great style. They often like—often the 70s styles like are made in polyester and more 70s Laura Ashley styles or Gunne Sax is the other one. Gunne Sax styles. They’ll sort of remake them in polyester. I can’t do that. I don’t do that. So all of mine are sort tend to be cotton. But I do kind of love certain contemporary designers who offer reinterpretations of that look. Some of them very literal like Batsheva, and some of them less literal and more kind of vibey, like Dôen is one, LoveShackFancy, which is a huge brand owned and designed by a famously Jewish person, Rebecca.
Phoebe Maltz Bovy: I did not know that. I knew that about Batsheva because Batsheva Hay actually went to my high school and I did not know her. I still don’t know her. I merely admire her. Um, I just remember her as one of the cool girls in the grade above me. And now she is. And but what I thought so interesting is that like, you wouldn’t think that the person kind of behind the pastoral dress resurgence would be like a girl I went to high school with in New York City and a Jewish one at that, which is interesting. So what I want to ask you about, though, is like, where—where, like, what—what’s your history with this type of floral dress? Specifically, specifically, yeah.
Joanna Rakoff: I was thinking about that a lot as I prepared to talk to you. So I was born in 1972, something, I’m older than you. And growing up in the 70s, there was definitely a whole bunch of Laura Ashley in the ether, and also a lot of Jessica McClintock Gunne Sax, which is a slightly more romantic vibe, like more sort of gauzy cottons. A lot of, like, lace trim and ribbon trim, but often with a floral print. It often is like a monochromatic print. And so when I was a little girl, I remember getting these Jessica McClintock Gunne Sax dresses for every special occasion, including my grandmother’s funeral, every wedding, my elementary school graduation. I still remember what these dresses looked like, and I would wear them today, honestly. Like, one was light blue and had a sailor collar.
Phoebe Maltz Bovy: Oh, that sounds nice.
Joanna Rakoff: They were beautiful. And they were all this kind of gauzy cotton. And they also all were very fitted, like had a fitted bodice. One was sleeveless; others had more like a puffed sleeve, but like a sheer puffed sleeve. And then like a somewhat full skirt, but not an overpowering huge skirt—not like a dirndl skirt, like a sort of soft full skirt. Even as a child, I felt like this was the ultimate silhouette. I thought I felt beautiful in it. I felt like, even as a second-grader, felt like this looked perfect on me. I was not a little girl who wanted to be a princess. So it wasn’t about that at all. Like, I wanted to be Jo March. I rode horses. You know, I was not like super, super girly by any means, but I loved these dresses. And as I got older, I really wanted, like, Laura Ashley, like, actual Laura Ashley. I remember there being a Laura Ashley store in this fancy mall in New Jersey that also had, like, a Bloomingdale’s. I’m trying to remember what it was called. Anyway, I would very occasionally go there with my mom and spend forever looking at the Laura Ashley dresses. And so here’s the important thing; my mom, who is an extremely fashionable but also kind of classic lady, felt that Laura Ashley dresses were too trendy. So this is the 80s. This is bringing us into the 80s. She felt that they looked—she would say they look like curtains or they look like blankets.
Phoebe Maltz Bovy: Okay, that’s—this is amazing. People have told me this about the dresses. When I post a selfie in one, I have had somebody say that it looks like I’m wearing the bedspread behind me.
Joanna Rakoff: That’s what my mom felt. She felt that they were not, so she loved the Jessica McClintock, the sort of romantic feel, which was not her style at all. She was very much like Emily Gilmore, like tailored suits. But she got that I was me, and I have, like, my curly hair and, like, my romantic-y face or whatever. But she felt that the Laura Ashley dresses were matronly and frumpy. She thought that the cotton fabrication in most of them was actually too heavy, that it would be hot in the summer.
Phoebe Maltz Bovy: She—
Joanna Rakoff: What she would say about them was, these are dresses that wear you rather than you wearing them. She hated the huge bows; some of them had these huge bows on the back.
Phoebe Maltz Bovy: Um, I’m with her on the bows, the huge, huge bows.
Joanna Rakoff: She also felt that the skirts in general were too full, heavy, and unflattering. She felt that they didn’t look good on anyone. And she also felt they were radically overpriced, that they weren’t great quality, but they were very expensive. And this is a woman who spent a lot of money on clothing. She just felt like they were not well made. So I ended up having a Laura Ashley bedroom with a comforter, wallpaper, whatever, a very simple Laura Ashley print. But I never owned a Laura Ashley dress. And then at some point, Batsheva Hay entered my world. I was in my late 40s when this happened. I remember that a number of people sent me images of different dresses of hers and said, “This is so you.” And I remember feeling like, oh my God, this is the ultimate me designer. And really coveting one of these dresses and loving the way she styled things too, like Laura Ashley dresses with combat boots. Because I did become a combat boot-wearing teenager, you know, and cowboy boots, and just not styling them in a not feminine way. This kind of like—whatever that is. I hate the phrase “wrong shoe theory,” but like, that kind of thing with the dresses.
Phoebe Maltz Bovy: We will get into the styling of them for sure.
Joanna Rakoff: Yeah. So I loved that and I desperately kind of wanted one of these. And I spent a lot of time honestly thinking about this and realized that part of it was that the way she had reinvented these was actually kind of solving some of the problems that my mom had with the dresses. But also, like, not to be all like pop psychoanalyzing myself or whatever, I think that there was a way in which I wanted to try out this style that I had never gotten to try out as a child. It’s a simple—I just wanted to try it out and see what it was like. And I’ve—The postscript is that at some point I felt that the Batsheva Hay dresses were too high a price point for me. And then at some point in, I think, 2021, I had to go to a gala and I wrote to her and said, “I have to go to this big event. Would you be interested in dressing me for it?” And she was like, “Oh my God, I’m such a fan. I can’t believe you wrote to me. This is so exciting. I would love to dress you.” So I got to go into her studio, try on a million dresses, and she had a bunch in mind for me. And I got to wear this sample dress to this event and then I got to keep it. And then after that, I sort of had a friendship with her, and I got to go into her studio and try things on and, you know, essentially buy things at cost from her. So I ended up with a ton of Batsheva dresses. And the postscript to my postscript is that some of them I felt like these do wear me. My mom is right about this. This print is too big; there are too many ruffles. But then others I wear all the time.
Phoebe Maltz Bovy: You are definitely the right person to be talking about this one. And I just—I’m thinking of like—I have been to upscale malls in New Jersey. I lived in New Jersey for a time. I lived in Princeton, New Jersey. It seems like we are both married to academics. Yes, I was there and I had been in some of the fancier malls. I’m just trying to imagine a Laura Ashley existing in that world, and it’s so hard to picture at this point. But I know I’m trying to—
Joanna Rakoff: Put these things together when like baguettes—it’s amazing, like the 80s and like baguettes and croissants, and were like woo.
Phoebe Maltz Bovy: And amazing. That is such—That is amazing. Okay, so I should say I was born in 1983 and I’m going to give a brief version of my own how I came to these dresses because it was quite different, I guess, which is that television—completely television. I’m a big fan of early 90s Britcoms and especially like Keeping Up Appearances has these dresses. And for like ages, like before—I know this was before the pandemic because I was pregnant with my older daughter, so it would have been like, in 2018. I saw a dress that looked like this in the Kensington Market, which is this area of Toronto that has a lot of used clothing stores. And I saw it just, like, from across the street. And I thought, that’s a dress that neighbour Elizabeth in the sitcom would totally wear. And something stuck with me. And I was like, I’m gonna find a neighbour Elizabeth dress. Even though I only— I was like a sort of grey T-shirt and jeans kind of person. That’s not the sort of thing I would wear. And then, like, I found one in this place, Siberia Vintage, a vintage store in Toronto. And then I just kept finding more of them and finding them online and so forth. And this all happened kind of like in parallel with the cottagecore whole thing. Definitely influenced by it in part, but also, like, coming from this completely different source. But I definitely have had these thoughts about, like, how to style it and not wanting it to seem too, like you say, too literal. And also to get back to that thing about location, feeling like in Toronto, it’s a real statement and it is really dress wearing me. And it’s like, oh, there’s Phoebe in one of her ridiculous dresses again. Because there does not seem to be. Like, you can buy them here, because I do, but, like, there’s not a lot of people doing that.
But I want to talk, though, about the politics aspect of this since I’m sure there is a male listener still somewhere perhaps who has not shut the podcast at this point. But my mother sent me this article in the Washington Post by Rachel Tashian called “Is a Floral Dress a Political Statement?” And I thought, oh, that’s interesting. And then I saw the subhead to this article and it was, “Why young conservative women are turning toward milkmaid dresses, florals, and feminine flourishes.” And I was like, first of all, I’m not young. Second of all, conservative. I’m not really that either. And I started to think about, like, am I coming across as politically something particular from these dresses? But what was so interesting in this piece was that it seems like there have actually been to, like, the chronology of it, which I had never really thought about before and which is so counterintuitive that basically first came the revival of this very sort of 1980s, early ’90s style of dress, which is extremely not what, like, politically conservative women were wearing a while back, with Batsheva and Isabel Sloan’s article about cottagecore in The New York Times in 2020. Then chronologically came this more conservative embrace of the same. Well, are they the same dresses? That’s something I want to ask about, which is there were these dresses that were these kind of intentionally viral Internet phenomena called the raw milkmaid dress and the sundress, which are not made out of pure cotton, which are very cleavage-bearing. It’s a different thing. So I want to talk about sort of the—what is the distinction between the sort of, more like, are, first of all, are they the same dresses styled differently or are they different dresses styled differently?
Joanna Rakoff: Well, I think. And if Isabel were here, she would say the same thing. I think we have to back up and talk about fashion. Unfortunately, I apologize to all male listeners. But what we’re really talking about is culture, is mass culture and art, in a way, art and design. Because this is sort of what happened from my perspective is what you see happening over and over again. It’s a little bit like, you know, that scene in The Devil Wears Prada where Miranda says to whatever her name is, Addie, why can’t I remember her name? You know, that sweater you’re wearing, you know, originated like, as, you know, on the Dior Runway or whatever. And then like, of course, yes. I mean, so it’s a version of that. Like the Batsheva Hay did not like, as you know, but listeners might not. Did not go to design school. Like, she was a lawyer and she had bought a Laura Ashley dress. It might have been Gunne Sax dress, I can’t remember. I think it was Laura Ashley’s dress and sort of like, cut it up and restyled it, which is like kind of a punk rock thing to do. Like a classic DIY punk rock thing to do. Like to take this kind of like, super femme, you know, relic from a super conservative time period, like the Thatcher-Reagan years. Like, that’s what. As a kid, you know, like when I was a kid in that time, like, that’s sort of actually what I kind of thought of. I thought that, like, the Laura Ashley represented, you know, these kind of, like conservative matrons in a way. Like, I don’t know, like people who are really into Princess Di and like, collected, like, collectible royalty.
Phoebe Maltz Bovy: It’s the Vicar. It’s the Vicar’s Wife on Keeping Up Appearances as the dress that I like the most. And it’s a light blue and white Laura Ashley with a slight sailor quality to it.
Joanna Rakoff: So, like, in a way, like, these dresses, I know, like, they are emblematic of that. And what Batsheva was doing was kind of taking that and appropriating it, right, and making it her own. And, you know, there is something political in that, in and of itself. It’s sort of taking this kind of, like, famously feminine style that was worn by somewhat more conservative, you know, churchgoing, whatever lady is like, Easter Sunday dresses that have, like, a very childish, not sexual look to it. And she was kind of making it fun, and in some cases, she was making it more sexy. Like, she has this style called the prairie square neck prairie dress that looks like this, except it’s so short you can, like, see your butt. I had one, and I wore it, like, basically once because it was so short on me that, you know, I felt uncomfortable. And then I gave it to a much shorter friend who’s, like, 4 foot 11. It was fine for her. So, like, she was changing this. And, you know, other designers clearly started glomming onto this. Like, she. As she became more and more popular and celebrities started wearing her. And I know that her dresses were used in, like, several TV shows. I remember watching this Gwyneth Paltrow show, The Politician, and there’s a scene in which a character is wearing a dress that I have, and my kids, my older kids who are teenagers, were like, don’t you have that dress? And I was like, I do. And. But the character wearing it was like. And so it started to sort of, like, become more mass culture rather than kind of like indie fringe culture. And what that turned into was like, that polyester milkmaid dress, you know? Well, yeah, I mean, I want to also talk about, like, it trickled down.
Phoebe Maltz Bovy: Yeah, it definitely. I think that analysis seems right. I just want to also bring in the Jewish part, which is that from what I’ve read about the origins of the Batsheva brand, part of it was. And that’s. You might not guess from the description of the mini dress, for her to have something that she could wear that would be, like, synagogue appropriate. Yeah, it’s true. That’s very, very true. But that also felt like her. I remember talking to her the first time I met her, and she was talking about how, you know, as a lawyer, having to, like, wear these suits. She was like, ugh, I have to wear these suits. And it was just so not me. And it was just incredibly like, fruit and fun for her to wear this kind of, like, fun vintage dress that made her think about being. It was sort of like a contemporary version of her favorite dress, favorite cardi dress from childhood. That’s interesting. I mean, I feel like with the Jewish aspect of it, though, that I’m also struck by that’s a bit another type of. Because when people talk about fashion being subversive, it’s often in the sense of either gender subversive in some way, or, you know, like that it would be more punk or more low cut or something. But I think there’s something subversive if you’re Jewish in wearing this kind of like hyper pastoral look, especially if you’re Jewish and live in a city or something like that. Like, it’s clearly like it’s always going to be like, I can. Even if I don’t think I’m wearing a dress like this ironically, it will come across like that on me. And once I start speaking, you know what I mean?
Joanna Rakoff: Like, it’s just—just like if I’m getting onto public transit in it, you know what I mean? Like, there’s just something about the context of it on me, and I think that’s something that I think changed. So, like, sort of it’s all. This is all a. Yes. And I think everything you said makes sense just like that. These milkmaid dresses and so forth. To be clear for the listeners who don’t know what a milkmaid dress is, it’s this idea of a dress that’s like very sort of bust-enhancing with the kind of like not good at describing like the gap. It’s got gathered material kind of around the bust and is like—it looks more like sort of the dirndl kind of look, right?
Joanna Rakoff: Yeah. The traditional milkmaid dress has like a very full skirt, like more what is called a dirndl skirt. Much, much fuller than anything. Well, she has a few dresses like that. But anyway, in general, it has this big, big voluminous skirt, and it has what’s known as a Basque waist, which is that like the waist kind of comes to a point at the very center of your body. So it accentuates the waist really dramatically. And the bodice has this area across your bust that is like pleated, and there’s usually a bow. It can be, depending on the style and also on people’s bodies, very, very low cut. And I actually own two dresses in this style that are from the company Quince, which. Does that exist in Canada? Quince?
Phoebe Maltz Bovy: It exists if you have a parent in America who can send it.
Joanna Rakoff: But yeah, yeah, but it’s like obviously, you know—not obviously—if you know Quince, you know that it’s not like they don’t make anything that is like super sexy, you know, and they’re not going for the MAGA crowd. It’s like it’s.
Phoebe Maltz Bovy: It’s not the same for it to translate to the Canadian. It’s not quite Joe Fresh, but it’s not so far off. It’s like Everlane, but a little less expensive.
Joanna Rakoff: It’s like Everlane similar.
Phoebe Maltz Bovy: And Everlane does ship to here. Yeah, but yeah, I mean, so what I think has happened, though, sort of both as it became more polyester and stretchy and mass market, but also like there’s this other thing of these sort of, like I said, the sort of intentionally viral tradwife dresses.
Joanna Rakoff: Yes.
Phoebe Maltz Bovy: Would that tie in with the ballerina farm? Who’s this influence, like a Mormon influencer? Is that it seems. What I think is so extremely, like why fashion matters and why we’re talking on a more political cultural podcast about fashion is something happened where like in the culture generally where right-wing Christian, all of this would have been in the past in the States, maybe also in Canada, associated with like a bit of modesty, modest dressing and so forth. Something switched where as long as what you’re trying to defend is heterosexuality and sort of like a male gaze and so forth, that gets right-wing coded, and we’ve—everything got very topsy-turvy. Where now having a woman looking extremely sort of overtly sexy in a dress is right-wing coded, whereas that would not have been the case I don’t even know how many years ago. But like this is new. And I think that this relates to what I was trying to do in a column I wrote about it for the CJN’s website. It is sort of tie these, tie this together to my own very niche interest in the material the clothing is made out of that. I think it’s more than incidental that the dresses that come across as more sort of conservative and also more Christian. Maybe that’s where I’m thinking about this a little bit. Are the ones that have a bit of stretch, a bit of sheen, or like a different. It’s different fabric?
Joanna Rakoff: Yes, maybe. Absolutely. There’s this one particular dress that you, I think, referred to in the piece, or at least it’s. I don’t know if it exists in Canada, but there’s a dress here in the States. I am blanking on what it’s called, but it’s like from a direct-to-consumer brand. And I think they only basically make.
Phoebe Maltz Bovy: This dress and the Evie, right, from the conservative magazine, the sundress thing, but.
Joanna Rakoff: It looks similar to that, and it’s made of like, like a pretty disgusting, from what I’ve read, polyester. Like people have described it as being like the lining of a dress. And basically, you can like cinch it in like you’re wearing a girdle, and there are these like Instagram reels and TikToks of like girls putting it on and they instantly have this really dramatic hour. They look like Jessica Rabbit or Jayne Mansfield. They have this really, really dramatic hourglass shape. And so it’s like a dress sort of that has a built-in girdle kind of. And, you know, they advertise Spanx, making.
Phoebe Maltz Bovy: It Spanx, but trad, I guess.
Joanna Rakoff: Yeah, but yeah, I mean, just to talk about like how this all became adopted by the Christian right, to sort of discuss that straightforwardly, I mean, it’s pretty fascinating to me. I had noticed this in dribs and drabs for a year or two and was really troubled by it because I was like, wait, do I have to change the way I dress? Not necessarily. Because people are going to think that I am like a trad wife or something. I live in Cambridge, Massachusetts. I’m like surrounded by Harvard professors. Like, no one is going to assume that about me, I think. I, like, as you said in your article, like, I feel like I look very Jewish, you know, and like, I also am usually wearing these dresses with like platform, like number six platform clogs or cowboy boots or like something that doesn’t read I’m going to church. And so I was sort of like, wait, do I have to put these away? Is, you know, I don’t. I’m concerned. And I, I first started noticing it because in Commentary on Momfluencers, essentially, momfluencers for a very long time were kind of known for wearing like out-of-style skinny jeans, you know, like ripped jeans and T-shirts and this very particular look, you know, with like the microbladed eyebrows, the extensions, like super long, you know, platinum blonde extensions and like this contoured face and like the sort of like very tight kind of like, but very, you know, middle of the.
Phoebe Maltz Bovy: Road, like not fashiony, very 2006 kind of The Hills era aesthetic.
Joanna Rakoff: Yes, exactly.
Phoebe Maltz Bovy: Like ripped Lauren Conrad as. Yeah, yeah.
Joanna Rakoff: And like sprayed tan sort of thing. And I then started seeing in Commentary especially there’s a writer named Sarah Louise Peterson who wrote a book called Momfluencers. And she has a great Substack that is just really interesting.
Phoebe Maltz Bovy: I’ve interviewed her about it actually.
Joanna Rakoff: Oh yeah, she’s amazing. And so I started noticing this thing creeping into her Substack, which was about like basically describing these momfluencers as like, oh, the stereotypical momfluencer and her flowy floral dress. And I didn’t, you know, it took some time before I was like, wait, what? And so I wasn’t that surprised when I saw the Post article saying that this has been adopted by MAGA. I also just will say that I recently was traveling in Italy, and it is mobbed with American tourists everywhere you go. And probably some of them are Canadian, I shouldn’t assume anyway, but there are lots, I mean lots. But I mean you’re surrounded by packs of girls who sort of look identical. You know, they have the same like super toned, like Pilates body and spray tan and like blown out hair and whatever. And I noticed that a lot of them were wearing milkmaid dresses or like dresses that have like ruching all over and puff sleeves and dresses similar to what I have. But they were young and had a, let’s just say like not punk rock, you know, alternative vibe. They had like a very, not to be mean, but like basic vibe to them. And that too gave me pause. And I was like, why am I dressing like these basic 20-year-olds, like with their matcha latte glued to their hand, you know, what, what is going on here? And then I saw that Post article.
Phoebe Maltz Bovy: Was like, and now it all makes sense. Yes, I could truly ask you about this all day, every day, but alas, it is a half-hour podcast. So I’m gonna have to ask you, where can people find you and what do you have that you’re working on that you would like to tell our listeners about?
Joanna Rakoff: The best place to find me is Instagram, and I’m just Joanna Rakoff, and you can find my books at any bookstore. Usually “My Salinger Year” and “A Fortunate Age.” You can watch the “My Salinger Year” film on any platform. It’s everywhere. It is a Canadian film; we filmed it in Montreal. My next book, you can find my essays all over. Just Google me. But my next book, “The Fifth Passenger,” will be out in about a year from Little, Brown.
Phoebe Maltz Bovy: Excellent. Well, we’ll have to have you back on to discuss that, if not sooner. Thank you so much, Joanna. This has been fantastic.
Joanna Rakoff: Thank you for having me.
Show Notes
Credits
- Host: Phoebe Maltz Bovy
- Producer and editor: Michael Fraiman
- Music: “Gypsy Waltz” by Frank Freeman, licensed from the Independent Music Licensing Collective
Support our show
- Subscribe to The CJN newsletter
- Donate to The CJN (+ get a charitable tax receipt)
- Subscribe to The Jewish Angle
